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Alex 01:27 We’re delighted to welcome back Tim F a rrell, who’s a geriatrician, associate chief for Age Friendly care at the University of Utah and chair of the American Geriatric Society Ethics Committee. All right, and finally we have Yael Zweig, who is a geriatric nurse practitioner at NYU. Tim, welcome back to GeriPal.
This idea that for critically ill patients in the ICU, geriatric conditions like disability, frailty, multimorbidity, and dementia should be viewed through a wider lens of what patients are like before and after the ICU event was transformative for our two guests today. I’m going to turn to you Lauren.
Missouri set a very high bar, explicit written documentation that applies to this specific circumstance, which the Cruzan’s eventually cleared. But legislation can change, clinical practice can change, but I think what we’ll talk about today is how we’re now opening the door to conversations rather than legal rules and documents.
Certainly SOME of those avoided hospitalizations, CPR, and ICU stays were due to documentation of those orders in the POLST. Because we haven’t done our job to document the value of what we’re doing. And I use that as that documentation about what they want, recognizing that not everybody does that.
What we did was ask clinicians earlier in the ICU stay for very sick patients to document prognosis, and for those who they thought would survive, to document six-month functional prognosis. And that helped them focus on that instead of, say, the blood pressure, the vasopressors or the ventilator settings that day. Eric: Okay.
Alex: Also returning Rebecca Sudore, who is professor of medicine at the UCSF in the division of geriatrics, and is a geriatric and palliative care doctor. I think Bob also noted documenting it. Eric: So Susan, and would you say that a POLST is more of a care planning document rather than an advance care planning document?
I think one of the residents you asked how would they broach a subject, and he said wording like, “Unfortunately, he still needs a ventilator.” ” You talk about this too, even in your own training, where even around CPR, the training is like he might need a ventilator if he couldn’t protect his airway.
In the US, geriatrics “grew up” as an academic profession with a heavy research base. Clinical growth of geriatrics programs has lagged academic research, despite the rapid aging of the population. . And so it’s within normal practice to have a reasoning and be accountable for it and document that.
I think one of the challenges, especially about liver, is it doesn’t have a dialysis, it doesn’t have an ecMo, it doesn’t have a ventilator. And I will document everything they express to me in a obviously non encephalopathic state. And that is how, you know, things get decided. If he has no capacity.
So whether or not somebody wants to be on CPR or ventilator, that sort of thing. What that looks like, to some degree, by having a conversation, by documenting wishes, we can potentially influence what that looks like and what that experience is for that person who is dying and then also for family members who are left behind.
So I think the practical implementation may be very challenging for this as well as just the documentation of whether or not somebody’s been vaccinated. Govind Persad and Emily Largent appeared first on A Geriatrics and Palliative Care Podcast for Every Healthcare Professional. Emily: Yeah.
Potential that documenting advance directives without a robust conversation about prognosis might have led to these findings. Alex 00:54 And Jasmine Santoyo-Olsson, who’s a social behavioral scientist and a fellow in the T32 Research Fellowship at the UCSF Division of Geriatrics. Danny 00:52 Thank you very much.
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